Home > Uncategorized > God in Thelema is not the morbid Christian God

God in Thelema is not the morbid Christian God

There is no god but man.

These are the words written atop “Liber OZ,” a short work describing “the rights of man” in the New Aeon.

The old Aeon was the Aeon of Osiris, the Father and the Suffering man, encapsulated in the figure of Jesus Christ; before that was the Aeon of Isis, the pagan era.  This is now the Aeon of the Crowned & Conquering Child.

Even Jesus foretold of this mystery when he said “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3).

Thelema asserts in its own Bible that “Every man and every woman is a star” and that godhead is “above you & in you” and “the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star.”

God is not some Being outside of ourselves. He is not some cloudy figure, perhaps an old man of sorts, that watches our every move and judges us. He is not a stern father that judges and rebukes you, but “the Child-Voice of Love in thine own Soul!”

In a sense, Jesus was an example of the Man-God, who was both Man and God. In him was God made Man and Man made God. Even as he says, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30)

In the symbol we sign each message with, the Unicursal Hexagram, we show God and Man as One. Traditionally, the Hexagram is formed of two separate triangles representing interlocking opposites of male & female, god & man, spirit & matter, etc. The unicursal hexagram – which literally means a hexagram that can be drawn in one stroke without lifting up a pen – symbolically asserts a unity between these complements.

One reason Christianity is dead is that the symbols are unbalanced. We praise good & life, and fear evil & death. In Thelema:

“My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.” (Liber Tzaddi)

Since God is All, and since Man’s true identity is One with God’s (and God’s true identity one with Man’s) we move beyond opposition into unity with All things from Highest to Lowest. As it is said: “Love is the law, love under will” and Love means Union.  Again it is written:

There is no grace,

There is no guilt,

This is the law:

DO WHAT THOU WILT.

God is expressed by Doing one’s own Will, which if pure is one with God’s will and God’s will is one with your own Will, and in that Thou art God. This is not a judgmental god of sin and hell and fear of punishment and endless retribution.

“Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains… Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us.”

Thelemites even go so far as to call themselves Atheists because they identify so closely with God. As it is said: “To admit God is to look up to God, and so not to be God. The curse of duality.”

We simultaneously deny the dogmatic Theistic god of superstition and assert our identity so closely with the God who is All that we admit of No Other. This is the secret meaning of saying “There is no god”: “This refers to the spiritual experience of Identity. When one realizes one’s Truth there is no room for any other conception.

It also means that the God-idea must go with other relics of the Fear born of Ignorance into the limbo of savagery. We speak of the Idea of God as generally understood, God being “‘something ‘not ourselves’ that makes for righteousness.””

The true God is one with ourselves, for “There is no god but man!”

  1. Martin T.
    January 2, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    There is no grace,
    There is no guilt,
    This is the law:
    DO WHAT THOU WILT

    Great! i’m going to build a huge C02 belching, pollution pouring factory. who cares so long as I’m rich.

    • January 2, 2010 at 5:38 pm

      While there is no grace or guilt, there are still practical consequences to things. The difference is that a Thelemite would never bother condemning you for sin for polluting or praising your grace as a saint for not polluting.

      “Do what thou wilt…” is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself.” This means pollution itself is antithetical to Thelema for pollution is to place CO2 and other materials where they do not belong. Christianity’s dead morals could only get in the way of such a simple, practical solution. Thanks for your comment!

      • June 27, 2013 at 2:13 pm

        However, everything has a purpose, even what we consider to be of consequence. The adaptation to adverse experience is of necessity to forward momentum.

  2. The Armchair Antichrist
    January 2, 2010 at 7:26 pm

    Why in denying the Christian God do you have to jump to another interpretation of God in another mystic tradition. Can’t you just not believe in any sort of God?

    The sacred text of Thelema is The Book of Law I believe. And it was written by a divine being called Aiwass through Aleister Crowley.

    I really don’t see much difference between Thelema and other religions.

    • January 2, 2010 at 7:56 pm

      When denying the geocentric idea of the Sun do you have to jump to the heliocentric interpretation of the Sun? Why not just believe any sort of theory about the Sun? The same for the idea of God – humanity’s understanding evolves and we need a new Law to bring down the Light. We no longer believe in the phantasm of morality & fear that we have called ‘God’ for so long – as some concerned grandpa condemns us with Original Sin and who chastises us for following our own God-given energies.

      You are correct that Thelema’s sacred text is The Book of the Law, and in this & other ways Thelema is similar to other religions but it is also very different. Crowley acknowledged past prophets including Lao-Tzu, Buddha, Jesus, and others and so does not entirely reject them. Even in the Book of the Law it says: “Aum! All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little.” There are many different aspects to Thelema, and they are summarized nicely in this essay on New Aeon Initiation. Thanks for your comment!

  3. The Armchair Antichrist
    January 2, 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Sorry, but I don’t see how that analogy works. The heliocentric interpretation of the Sun was an attempt to model the universe. We know the universe exists. But, we have no idea if God exists and no evidence to support that. So, changing the interpretation of God doesn’t solve anything.

    “humanity’s understanding evolves and we need a new Law to bring down the Light.”

    I’m sorry, but that just strikes me as religious fundamentalism.

    As for the essay on New Aeon Initiation, it seems to be a list of assertions. You are essentially trading one set of dogmas with another set of dogmas.

    You also spoke of Christianity “…having been choked by the exoteric dogmas accumulated over centuries of superstitious and fearful tragedies”. But, is not Thelema itself full of magick, and ceremonial rituals.

    Is it not possible to live life without following any mystic tradition? Does humanity need everything to be revealed to it by some divine being? Can we not throw away all mysticism and superstition and truly do we what we think is right by our own conscience?

    • January 2, 2010 at 8:24 pm

      93: How does bringing Light “strike you as religious fundamentalism.” Light is a symbol for knowledge. Darkness is a symbol for ignorance. Bringing Light in the world is another way of saying dispersing ignorance, especially of exoteric dogmas of judgmental god, sinfulness, belief in external angels and such.

      “You are essentially trading one set of dogmas with another set of dogmas.” Again, see the Sun analogy. We do not interpret God as some Entity that responds to prayer-petitions so we have no need of proving ‘His’ existence – we are with you on all counts of denying the existence of that God. Frankly, I would not even like to use the term ‘God’ as it brings up all of those associations of the Paternal Man-in-the-Sky who created & judges the world. As it has been said: “The keystone to this arch some have called God, some Brahma, some Zeus, some Allah, some even IAO the God of the sounding name; but in truth, O seeker, it is Thy-SELF.”

      “But, is not Thelema itself full of magick, and ceremonial rituals.” Thelema uses ‘magick’ which is defined as ‘the Science & Art of causing Change in conformity with Will.’ In that sense, this blog post is a manifestation of magick. Thelema uses both Western ceremonial ritual and Eastern meditation as methods to come to oneself, as mentioned above.

      “Is it not possible to live life without following any mystic tradition?” It certainly is, and Thelema even provides for this saying that only a few can come to a mystic understanding, but the Law of Thelema is for all and applies both to the mystic and the non-mystic. Thelema is not revealed by some “divine being” in the interpretation of many people – we simply understand Aiwass as the name for that “THY-SELF” mentioned above, who has been called ‘The Higher Self’ or ‘Self’ as opposed to ‘self/ego’ (by Jung and Hindus), Brahman, Atman, God, etc. “There is no god but man” as it says at the top of this post. It may be possible but “Less than All cannot satisfy Man” and mysticism is – when you cut away the dogma – the art of Union with All which is one’s full or ‘true’ Self.

      “can we not throw away all mysticism and superstition and truly do we what we think is right by our own conscience?” That is the very basis of ‘Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law’ in a sense. Your ‘conscience’ in the sense that a child will naturally do what is ‘right’ to it. There is a lot more subtly to this phrase that is partially explained in ‘The Message of the Master Therion.’ Thanks a lot for your comments!

  4. The Armchair Antichrist
    January 2, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    “93: How does bringing Light ‘strike you as religious fundamentalism.’”

    Every religion speaks of bringing the truth and the light. And they claim that they have the exclusive ownership of this truth. Only through religion X will you truly understand the meaning of life and so on.

    Alright. So, we do not really differ too much on the God thing. I would like to see the word taken out of popular use too. The difference is that I don’t see myself as God. I am merely a member of a species that has acquired a high level of sentience.

    “…we simply understand Aiwass as the name for that “THY-SELF” mentioned above”

    From Aleister Crowley’s descriptions, Aiwass was an objectively separate being from himself with superior knowledge and discarnate (without physical form). This seems to be to be revelation from a higher power.

    “That is the very basis of ‘Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law’ in a sense.”

    What I am getting at here is how is following any one book going to reveal to you the way to live, answers to the fundamental questions and so on. Essentially, why follow Thelema at all? Why follow the teachings of one person (Aleister Crowley) so steadfast?

    • January 2, 2010 at 8:56 pm

      93: “Every religion speaks of bringing the truth and the light. And they claim that they have the exclusive ownership of this truth. Only through religion X will you truly understand the meaning of life and so on.”

      This is true for Christianity and Islam, definitely but not for very many others. As quoted above, the Book of the Law itself says “Aum! All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little.” Isn’t that the exact opposite of saying ‘we have a monopoly on truth’?

      “The difference is that I don’t see myself as God. I am merely a member of a species that has acquired a high level of sentience.”

      And I certainly agree with you. You have to think: If I don’t mean the exoteric Judeo-Christian version of God, what does it mean for Man to be God? This God is a more mystical God in the sense of just being a name of one’s identity with all. This is spoken of as Yoga, nirvana, kensho, samadhi and many other terms in Eastern language and it has come to the West in that perverted phrase “union with God.” The difference with Thelema is that we don’t ask you to believe but instead say “experience it yourself and function from certainty, not faith in some belief or mental tenet.”

      Crowley was quoted as saying “Believe nothing till you find it out yourself. Say not ‘There is a God’ before you experience that there is a God. Say not ‘I have a soul’ before you feel that you have a soul. You can never understand until you have experienced.” He is also famous for having said ” I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on awakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning”

      “From Aleister Crowley’s descriptions, Aiwass was an objectively separate being from himself with superior knowledge and discarnate (without physical form). This seems to be to be revelation from a higher power.”

      In certain places, he explicitly says ‘praeter-human’, yes, which means beyond human which could simply mean beyond the normal capacities of humans. Aiwass is explicitly identified with the Holy Guardian Angel by Crowley in multiple places and explicitly identified with the Secret Self in material like “Liber Samekh.” Again, “There is no god but man” and Crowley re-affirmed this statement throughout his life in many forms. Many people don’t even bother debating whether It is inner or outer and simply do the practices to calm the mind, excite passion, etc. and work towards that Union.

      “What I am getting at here is how is following any one book going to reveal to you the way to live, answers to the fundamental questions and so on. Essentially, why follow Thelema at all? Why follow the teachings of one person (Aleister Crowley) so steadfast?”

      We don’t “follow” anything but see truths revealed in Thelema. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. That is both a freedom from the incessant demands and dogmas of past religions & philosophies while simultaneously being a call to “Know Thyself” for you can’t Do what thou wilt if you don’t know who ‘thou’ really are. The Book of the Law reveals a simple & concise Law that has the solution to personal, social, sexual, emotional and spiritual freedom.

      “It all depends on your own acceptance of this new law, and you are not asked to beleive anything, to accept a string of foolish fables beneath the intellectual level of a Bushman and the moral level of a drug-fiend. All you have to do is to be yourself, to do your will, and to rejoice.” Thanks a lot for your comments & questions, they are appreciated.

      • The Armchair Antichrist
        January 3, 2010 at 6:19 am

        I relent. We probably believe in generally the same things, but expressed in different ways. I respect what you have said and how you have conducted yourself.

        If Thelema is considered religion it is one that I haven’t much against. We are more allies than anything else in the fight against the stiff fundamentalists.

        Good luck with them.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:33 am

        93 Armchair Atheist: Indeed, thank you very much for your comments. I hope you learn what Thelema has to offer beyond mere rejection of Theism and you can be conscious of the pure joy that comes from fulfillment of Will!

  5. revenator
    January 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Truth can only be found when we realize that we are created beings. This makes us lower than God and we must always look up to Him, His way, His will and His authority.

    To think that a fallible lowly human being is god raises self to a level that in not achievable. We are so limited. We are not all knowing, all powerful or always present.

    Since your religion believes we are all god then there really isn’t a god because even a second god would eliminate a true god.

    What happens when your god thought opposes my god thought? The strongest god thought will survive. Do what you wilt has been eliminated by the stronger willt!

    Face it, the only way for man to survive is to voluntarily submit to the One True God and come back into right standing with Him through the One Way He has made for us to come. I know this sounds narrow to the broad way of everyone doing what they will but truth is a hard pill to swallow.

    Good luck with your sight. It will draw a large number of people that are seeking away that doesn’t require submission to an Almighty God.

    Pastor Tom

    • January 2, 2010 at 9:07 pm

      93 Pastor Tom,

      “Truth can only be found when we realize that we are created beings. This makes us lower than God and we must always look up to Him, His way, His will and His authority.”

      The body & mind of the soul may be created things but the Soul in its purity is one with God. We need not look up to Him but look with even eyes… no, the same eyes! God ‘sent’ Jesus to show that God & Man are & can be One.

      To think that a fallible lowly human being is god raises self to a level that in not achievable. We are so limited. We are not all knowing, all powerful or always present.

      It is indeed achievable to be one in identity with Godhead, but only – as foreshadowed by Jesus’ own teachings – when one given up attachment to all things. All things being within my Body, I am omnipresent [all-pervasive]; All forces being within my Body, I am omnipotent [all-powerful]; All relations being within my Body, I am omniscient [all-knowledgeable].

      “Since your religion believes we are all god then there really isn’t a god because even a second god would eliminate a true god.”

      In a sense there is no ‘second’ god but there are also Infinite Gods or infinite expressions of God. God is All, is in All, is express through All and each Soul has the potential to burst the sinful restriction-bar of separateness to become that All. Every man and every woman is a star and divinity is “above & in” each one of them.

      “What happens when your god thought opposes my god thought? The strongest god thought will survive. Do what you wilt has been eliminated by the stronger willt!”

      Truly! I agree! Therefore one needs to be in harmony with the thoughts & movements of all things so that there is no opposition but a Unity of Motion.

      “Face it, the only way for man to survive is to voluntarily submit to the One True God and come back into right standing with Him through the One Way He has made for us to come. I know this sounds narrow to the broad way of everyone doing what they will but truth is a hard pill to swallow.”

      I actually agree with you, except I know that man can merely ‘survive’ without God. We want more than that: For man (and woman!) to be expressions of beauty, strength, joy, and laughter through expressing their own Godhead. The difference between us is what we believe constitutes ‘submitting to the One True God’ and who that ‘One True God’ is. As I’ve said, Thelema does not simply deny all things Christian but actually brings many of the ideas to fruition! Thanks a lot for your comments, they are much appreciated. Love is the law, love under will.

    • N.O.X
      January 9, 2010 at 6:35 am

      Pastor Tom
      Like “Christianityisdead” quoted “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3).

      Consider these bible quotes as well: “Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword” (Matthew 10.34)….seems like a further foreshadowing , by Jesus, of the Aeon of Force and Fire: The Aeon of Horus.

      “Suppose ye that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather divsion. (Luke 12.51)….what do you have to say about that Pastor Tom

      93 93/93

    • June 27, 2013 at 2:24 pm

      The first books of Genesis give humans not only the divine creation of being made in the image of God, but also the charge of continuity of creation.

  6. pakpandair
    January 2, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    Thelema,

    Had a wonderful visit and read. Interesting discourse!

  7. January 3, 2010 at 3:47 am

    I grok it Stranger. It doesn’t take a genius to see that gods are nothing more than projections of the human mind. You don’t need astrology or mythology to come to that conclusion.

    • January 3, 2010 at 4:04 am

      93 zebulonthered – I agree! As Crowley wrote, “For Gods and devils too I find / Are merely modes of my own mind!” Thanks for your comment.

  8. January 3, 2010 at 5:13 am

    In his famous essay The Depth of Existence, theologian Paul Tillich wrote, “The name of this infinite and inexhaustible depth is God. That depth is what the word God means. And if that word does not have much meaning for you, translate it, and speak of the depths of your life, of the source of your being, of your ultimate concern, of what you take seriously without any reservation.”

    Tillich is a rawkstar in prog. Christian circles. the god you’re talking about isn’t one i know and it’s a poor characture of conservative and fundie Christian’s concept of a personal God. gotta do more research, this is a strawman.

    • January 3, 2010 at 5:32 am

      93 Luke – I can see how you may think it is a straw man if it does not fit your own conceptions but I personally know of many people who believe in the God I am speaking of. If you consider the infinite and inexhaustible depth to be God, I can agree, and we have the potential to become one with that inexhaustible depth! As I tried to make clear, we only deny the exoteric God formed of dogma but assert THAT which we often call God which the highest Self of ourselves. Thelema asserts “Thou hast no right but to do thy will”, “Love is the law, love under will” and others that supersede the Chrsitian laws. Not ‘Thy will be done’ but ‘Do what thou wilt!’ I appreciate your comments.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:15 am

        i think Christians agree that we can be come one with the inexhaustible depth… when we die. not before. we are limited in our human form and liberation comes not through denying these limitations but embracing them. i’m all about embodiment, what you’re stearing towards seems a little gnostic. you keep talking about what Thelema asserts but never fully explain what these phrases exactly mean. where does quantum entanglement come into play? community? morals, ethics?

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:32 am

        93: If Christians agree that you can only become one with the inexhaustible depth when you die, Thelema asserts this possibility in this life, here & now. I agree completely that “we are limited in our human form and liberation comes not through denying these limitations but embracing them.” but this liberation can in fact come in this life! I am trying to explain what these phrases mean, but many of them require deep study. Many pages of commentary have been written on single lines – even single words! We do not worry ourselves with quantum entanglement and other theories of the physical world except insofar as they help us understand the Law of Thelema – morals & ethics of Thelema are a deep subject, but are based in “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.” Check out this website’s links & quotes for a general idea on how Thelema treats morals/ethics.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:34 am

        will do! thanks for the link

  9. The Armchair Antichrist
    January 3, 2010 at 6:13 am

    These Christians want to have their cake and eat it too. They are just messing around with definitions when it suits their needs. If God is just the inexhaustible depth of existence or whatever then it isn’t a personal being concerned with your every thought and action.

    • January 3, 2010 at 6:21 am

      @ Armchair: you’re right! this isn’t a personal God and there’s a MASSIVE tradition in which Tillich is a part that claims this very thing. Existentialists, Process, and PoMo Christians (as well as the mystics of old) would claim the same thing… for these Christians mystery is still central, omnipotence is replaced with omnipotentiality, and God really isn’t personal. we can experience God’s grace, love, whatever, but it’s not the totality, only glimpses. to deny God is akin to deny’n existence for they are one in the same.

      • The Armchair Antichrist
        January 3, 2010 at 6:32 am

        All you are doing by changing definitions is playing with words.

        “to deny God is akin to deny’n existence for they are one in the same.”

        Let’s take the definition of God as a chair. By denying God you deny the chair you sit on.

        By embracing this new concept of God you are throwing away what has been described in the Bible. This is a God who cares about what you eat, what you do on a certain day of the week, what you can think, what you can say and so on.

        You cannot reconcile this new concept of God with the Bible. So, you would be hard-pressed to even call yourself a Christian.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:35 am

        93 Luke: In this sense we differ much less… As the title of the post says, God in Thelema is not the morbid Christian God that we are familiar with. When we identify God with existence, we are stepping outside the normal understanding (though exoteric) of Christianity. What you are speaking about seems very similar to Thelema, although Thelema consolidates all the ideas in a single word, explained in the phrase “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” and further explained in the rest of the Book of the Law and the other Holy Books of Thelema. Thanks for your replies, they are much appreciated.

  10. January 3, 2010 at 6:39 am

    chair definition fails as it’s a pantheistic metaphor, christianity is panentheistic.

    plus this isn’t a new definition of God but rather quite old and quite biblical. what it isn’t is the palagian theology as exposed by right-wing christians. nor am i “throwing away” what has been described in the bible anymore than Jesus or Paul did in the Gospels stating that “Christ doesn’t abolish the Law but Fulfills it.” more research is needed on your part, otherwise it’s a genetic fallacy.

    • January 3, 2010 at 7:13 am

      93 Luke – I am afraid I have to agree with the Atheist here. The Bible version of God is how he describes it – one who cares about your actions, gets behind sides in acts of war, condemns people to suffering, does miracles, etc. – and is not as you describe. Right-wing Christians have their basis firmly within the Bible itself. You are indeed throwing away a lot of the Bible in your conception – we do not need more research but in fact the onus of proof is on you since your views are irregular. We can easily supply lines that show God is someone who will condemn you for acting or not acting in particular ways, for even thinking certain things… There is no fallacy here – you are just being a bit dismissive without addressing any claims.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:50 pm

        haha! my views are irregular?! nope.. just outside of the Duetero-Pauline-Augustinian understanding of the bible, or what Marcus Borg calls “The priestly reading.” this gets into how we view the bible. i see you guys familiar with the pop understanding of Christianity, but no where near my traditions of liberal/progressive and neo-orthodox readings. i’d be able to supply lines back at cha with a non-personal God, a more corporate God, just look at Job, Exodus, Jonah, and the synoptics. most think the bible is a unified theology and is “the Word of God.” once again, not my tradition, which views each book differently through textual and modern criticisms.

        speaking of address claims… what about the phrases you keep reciting and expecting me to look up? sorry dawg, gotta work both ways, you want me to explain without having to explain yourself. not gonna happen.

      • January 3, 2010 at 6:59 pm

        93 Luke: Regular means the norm, and irregular means outside the norm. Your views are outside of the norm and therefore irregular. To this otherwise is to be ignorant and naive. Again: Your views are not held by the vast majority of Christians and are therefore by definition irregular. This may upset you but its just a plain fact of truth.

        I assure you that 99% of all Christians I have met would not agree with your ‘reading’ of the Bible. We are addressing what you call “pop Christianity” which has been the basic understanding of Christians for a while. No one I know has ever mentioned an inexhaustible depth when speaking of God, and frankly if you are not even speaking of Christianity as most people think of it. You can use your scholarly “neo-orthodox” and “liberal-progressive” interpretations to bend the Bible to mean whatever you like it to, but you are not the type of Christian being addressed here. It is like someone in modern Rome getting offended when reading an insult to romans in 20 BC – they are the same name but refer to completely different things and it makes no sense to conflate them and talk as if they were.

        “Gotta work both ways”? What do you mean? While I have addressed all your points you have admitted to not even looking up the Bible verses I have mentioned. It seems you are the one who should be striving towards working both ways. Anyhow, it seems you do not want to have a serious conversation now – I thank you for your comments but please only post if you want to actually address the blog’s points instead of trying to justify your “liberal-progressive” interpretation of the Bible to us.

      • January 3, 2010 at 7:14 pm

        “I assure you that 99% of all Christians I have met would not agree with your ‘reading’ of the Bible.” you have met are the key words here.. how many libs have you met?

        “You can use your scholarly “neo-orthodox” and “liberal-progressive” interpretations to bend the Bible to mean whatever you like it to” everything is an interpretation. you can’t get outside of your own cultural biases and baggage.

        “you have admitted to not even looking up the Bible verses I have mentioned” i have? i don’t think i’ve admitted this in the least.

        “only post if you want to actually address the blog’s points instead of trying to justify” -i have consitently ask for you to explain the whole “DO WHAT THOU WILT” but receive nothing in return save to explain where i’m coming from. i do, you label it strange and then rest without having to answer anything… like who is thou? how is this different from gnosticism? is this just repackaged satanism? there seems to be no ethic or moral code based on the link you gave me, so how then to live in community when everyone will be “doing what is right in their own eyes” which is a phrase used often in the O.T. in a pejorative sense?

        i am here to try to gain understanding, to state that there is more than one understanding of Christianity and therefore it is not dead you’re only beating on the fundie/conservative version without dealing totally and this is because you’re limited and therefore NOT God, a god, or any such thing. you’re merely human, with your own interpretation, cultural baggage and personal history, made of the same organic material as everything else.

  11. Ryan Shirtz
    January 3, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Its aways the same/attack Christians ignore everyone else.Now why not “IslamisDead”? or how about HinduismIsDead? ect. I think the reason is simple. You know that the Bible is True but you cant stand it/even hate it, you cannnot stand that you will be accountable for your sins. You have a moral conscince thats reminds you daily of this. So like Satan said to Eve, surely you will not die! you will have knowledge!, But having all knowledge will not ease your guilt. Only the mercy of God in Christ who loved you enough to die in your place can save you and give you true life!

    But God demonstrates his Love for us , while we where yet sinners Christ died for us

    • January 3, 2010 at 6:08 pm

      93 Ryan Shirtz – I appreciate you taking time to leave a comment.

      “Its aways the same/attack Christians ignore everyone else.Now why not “IslamisDead”? or how about HinduismIsDead? ect.”

      My reason is, frankly, that I am American and we live in a nation dominated by Christians. Islam and Hinduism are also dead in the same sense but the message would not get as far nor have as an immediate effect. It is merely a matter of efficiency, Ryan!

      “I think the reason is simple. You know that the Bible is True but you cant stand it/even hate it, you cannnot stand that you will be accountable for your sins.”

      While you live your whole life in fear of “being accountable for your sins” I have actually read the Bible and know of the many contradictions, etc. Is it a sin to lie with a homosexual? Then all the other Old Testament rules still apply? Stone your daughter, sell her into slavery, and such then…! Believing in such nonsense and causing such horrible restriction to oneself & others is the true Sin.

      “You have a moral conscince thats reminds you daily of this.”

      My own conscience reminds me daily that my life is wholesome and joyful. Only those who are obsessed with sin have a conscience that is constantly making bite themselves in the ass. This very obsession with sin is itself the sin!

      “So like Satan said to Eve, surely you will not die! you will have knowledge!, But having all knowledge will not ease your guilt. Only the mercy of God in Christ who loved you enough to die in your place can save you and give you true life!”

      No offense, but the Serpent did not say that to Eve. True life is only found by doing one’s WIll which is one with God’s Will – “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”

      “But God demonstrates his Love for us , while we where yet sinners Christ died for us.”

      Christ died to absolve a debt that I never took, agreed to, or had any say in – that is pure tyranny and madness.

      God demonstrates his Love for us by sending himself to get tortured in the most horrible way, by making millions & billions of people fear of hell & sin their whole lives, of causing wars and other unsightly nonsense by priest and patriarch? God demonstrates his Love in the love of one person for another; God demonstrates his Love insofar as we ourselves demonstrate and manifest Love.

  12. January 4, 2010 at 4:25 am

    um. Thanks for visiting my blog. Though I am not quite sure what you are preaching here. What I do know is that it is unkind and unloving. If that is your goal. Great! I might just be a believer in the “dead Christianity” but fortunately I have love. :)

    • January 4, 2010 at 4:30 am

      93 AJ Collins – Thanks for visiting my blog in turn. I am not sure how you see “Love is the law, love under will” as unloving. Perhaps you should take more than a cursory glance and realize what I am ‘preaching here’ is the Law of Liberty, Life, Love, and Light.

  13. nina
    November 9, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    wow a lot to get through here this bet to be good stuff i will let you know :)

  14. January 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    93 – Is this a quote from something? Does anyone take your poor pirate imitation seriously in the least?

  1. January 4, 2010 at 7:38 am
  2. January 29, 2010 at 8:09 pm

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